AP2 Swing Weight Chart

There is a lot of custom shafts/grips you can get with AP2 irons.  Is there a chart that will give you the swing weight results with custom specs? I am looking at purchasing one of these setup below, but would like to know what the swing weight results are before ordering it.

-1/2 inch KBS Tour stiff/Golf Pride Decade Standard Size/AP2 irons - what would the swing weight be if built to that specs?

We don't have the build specs on the 712's yet, but if you build a 710 AP2 iron with a KBS 1/2" short, you would be looking around a C7 +/-1 swingweight.  If you put the multi compound (new decade) grip, you are looking at a C9 +/-1 swingweight.  We should be able to build it as heavy as D1-D2 if you make that request. 

-1/2 inch True Temper Dynamic Gold S300/Golf Pride Decade Standard Size/AP2 irons - what would the swing weight be if built to these specs.

On the 710 AP2 irons, standard DYG S300 at 1/2" short with the Multi compound (new decade) will build at D1 +/- 1 swingweight.  We can build it heavier if requested.

So I was wondering how would you build it heavier?

Is this "multi-compound (new decade)" anything like a Winn Excel RF grip (42g standard or 43 midsize)? I know that a standard Golf Pride or Lamkin Crossline grip is 52g. A Winn Excel RF restores the swingweight by 2 points. Does Titleist install something the equivalent of a Winn Lite grip (25 g for standard and 27 for midsize)in custom applications? That would make the clubs with KBS -1/2" shafts come in at D2 or so without hosel weight. True Temper Lite XL shafts come in ~2 swingweight points higher than Dynamic Gold because the butt portion of the shaft is thinner (I found this out when constructing some irons a couple years ago).
lighter grip = heavier swingweight. Standard rubber grip is 52g. Winn Lite is 25g std size. That is a swingweight difference of 5 points. Most common grip change is Winn Excel RF 42g standard size (difference of 2 points). Golf Pride has very little variance between standard and midsize. Lamkin Crossline has a difference of 11g or so (std = 52, mid = 63). Hosel weight = more swingweight. Butt weights make the grip heavier and that reduces swingweight. True Temper Lite XL has a thinner butt end vs Dynamic Gold, which results in 2 swingweight points heavier. I constructed a set of irons and modified several other clubs.

Thanks Lou for the great information.

You're welcome. Basically between 1972-2003 I played with a standard set of irons and woods (I played very little golf between 1993 and 2003). All these years my height was 5'11 3/4". When I took an insurance physical in 2005, my height increased to 6'1". I took up golf again in 2006 and my game was a bit of science project upgrading to the newer technology (I used wooden woods with steel shafts and Wilson X31 irons until then). At first, I found woods and hybrids to be about 1 inch too long. I experimented with lead tape to bring the swingweights up and then even reshafted them to steel. Didn't find out all the intricacies of grip weight and shaft weight on swingweight nor did I have a clue about proper lie angles until I got into constructing my own golf clubs in 2009.

is it possible to get  swingweight adjusted post use? i have a custom set of 710 AP2's in DGSL300's, they swingweight at d1 which i am finding to light. is it possible to get them sweightweighted to d3?

Marc I read this string and it is very interesting. Speak to a qualified club fitter that custom build clubs, the idea from Lou is that the shaft make defines the swingweight, so to get the swingweight you have to pick a shaft that gives you the swingweight with the right weight grip!! you dont pick a shaft to give you swingweight or now that you have picked a shaft and a grip, you now have to live with the swingweight. a clubfitter will take any shaft and grip combo and build the club to the swingweight you want. KBS shafts are designed for MOI weighting. MOI weighting does not work on swingweight. the way it works is that you take a club and hit balls, the fitter will add weight "lead tape" untill you feel that the weight is right. then he will measure the MOI of that club. in my instance I used a 6 iron and the MOI was 2795, the swingweight was D4. Then they build the full set to the same MOI. this means that from your longest iron to the Wedges the MOI is the same. the effect on the swingweight is that the swingweight in tour Wegdes will be higher then the long irons. MOI ensure that the feel weight of all the irons are the same. swingweight effect is that the shorter irons feel lighter than the long irons. Yes if you want light clubs you fit light shafts and light grips. that is what mass production do especially with ladies clubs. Go read about MOI fitting at Tom Wishon's site. The clubfitter increase the swingweight/mOI buy putting weight in the hosel of the iron. This is a standard practice for years.
In regards to what Marc says about adjusting swingweight post-use... They use titanium powder in the hosel to increase swingweight (it is good for about 2 points) and then they shove a cork plug to pack it down. The easier way to change swingweight by 2 points is to go from a standard 52 gram rubber grip to Winn Excel RF (42g standard, 43g midsize). If you cut your club 3/8" on a steel shaft it reduces swingweight by 2 points. Graphite is 2 swingweight points per 1/2" The new Winn Excel Lite grips are 25g. I downloaded a swingweight calculator mainly for the purpose of constructing clubs (did a set of irons, 2 fairway woods, a lob wedge and 2 hybrids). The greatest effect on swingweight is the weight of the head. 2 grams of weight change = 1 swingweight point change. Next greatest is the grip - 5 grams of grip weight change = 1 swingweight point change. Shaft weight change - 20 grams = 1 swingweight point. That is why a steel shafted club is 1/2" shorter than a graphite shafted club (standard steel shaft = 125g uncut and standard graphite shaft = 65g uncut). In regards to TT Lite XL vs DG... they both are pretty close in shaft weight (125g vs 127) but the TT Lite XL is 2 points heavier in swingweight because the butt end is thinner and the hosel end is thicker.

lou please do yourself a favour and read about swing weight vs moi by tom wishon who is one of the top club fitters

and technical advisors to the pga getting swingweight right the way you state is distorts the overall weight of the club

and change club lengt and moi through the set  this is a very technical issue.  

Those numbers are facts. I have actually weighed golf clubs. I've also constructed a set of irons (Snake Eyes Q3I 5-SW and 600W lob wedge), two fairway woods (Toski Target T-6 7 and 9), and a couple hybrids (Q3A 38 and Q4A 39). I also have a set of Lynx Black Cat irons I had the lie angles set. I did a lot of experimenting with golf clubs. I've also did my own reshafting on a fairway wood (I have an Adams 9 wood, now in my nephew's golf bag, with a TT Lite XL steel shaft; I have a SQ 5/26 in my bag and hit it about 5 yards farther and hit both pretty consistent).

I'm not going to disagree with you about basing a set of clubs on swingweight. I recently sold my Q3I irons and the individual went out and shot the best game of golf he ever played (+3 at National City). The 5-7 irons were spaced 1/2 inch, the 7-8-9 were spaced 1/4 inch and the lie angles were spaced 1/2 degree. The 5-9 irons had 43 gram grips and the wedges had 52 gram grips. The 5-8 irons were C8 swingweight, the 9 and PW were D1 and the SW was D5.

Another fact: most golfers couldn't detect a difference of 2-3 swingweight points. I do the best I can on making my clubs fit and hit properly given the limited amount of funds I have available (don't have $1000 for a brand new set of irons or $500 for the latest driver nor another $500 for a "360 degree fitting").

The decision to go Titleist vs Ping recently was based on results from a launch monitor. The DCIs hit dead straight (the lie board verified to set them back to spec). When I bought my Vokeys, I went into to the store armed with what works for me (had the 54-11 bent to 55 and the lie angle 64.5 and had the 58 and 62 lie angles bent to 65). I have a set of Eye 2 irons (6-PW) that I may eventually reshaft myself. I don't really trust some of the repair facilities to do a reshaft because they often don't trim the tip.

I don't play a bad game of golf, either (I shoot in the mid 80s on a regulation course and close to par on an exec course); my only real shortcomings had been the middle game (the 5 and 6 irons; however the 5H is changing that because I took it out on the golf course yesterday and hit the green on a 175 yard par 3 very first shot) and putting (my Achilles heel had been 6-10 ft putts and changing putters, along with a fit, has helped that).

My bunker game is better than most (just have to work on the wet and hard ones more). The only thing now is getting the nuances down with the DCI irons.

As far as distance.... I would say mine is average (240 for a driver, 200 for a 3 wood, 185 for a 7 wood, 170 for the 5H, 155 for the 6, etc). I don't see a problem breaking 80 by the end of the year. I also tend to experiment on the golf course once in a while.

For instance, putting my persimmon 5 and 10 wood and 34H in the bag in place of the 7 wood thru 6 iron; I shot a 42 for 9 holes at Riverwalk Mission one time). Another time I went to National City (par 34 2200 yards) in 2009 with a 5 wood, 28-32-39 hybrids, PW-SW-LW and shot 3 over par.

I recently went to Tecolote Canyon with driver, 7 wood, persimmon 10 wood and 34H, 8-XW (Eye 2 before having lie angle flattened to yellow dot) and had 10 pars in 13 holes (when you pay for 9, you play 1-7 and 13-18); the only reason I had bogeys on 3 holes was because I missed the green with my 7 wood by about 5 yards and hit over the green on two holes with my 34.

I had to go somewhere so I had to hit the enter key. My set of clubs is all name brand and the total investment is a little over $800. The Vokey wedges are brand new (I bought the 54-11 when I sold my Snake Eyes irons and the other 2 are 2 weeks new). The remainder are used and I took advantage of 90 day playability guarantees (where you can return a club if you don't like it) to arrive at the setup that works best. I absolutely love the feel of the DCI irons and what is good is that I can hit a 4 or 5 iron (which I haven't been able to do since 2006, when I took up golf again); the only thing is that I am spoiled by my 5H because it is super easy to hit and gets me on the dance floor on 165-175 yard par 3s pretty consistent. The DCIs go dead straight. I've had a Burner Draw HT loft M flex driver (it is a 13 degree driver supposedly with senior flex shaft - probably effectively R flex because the shaft is 45" and Burner drivers are generally 46 1/2"; whoever had it before put an Excel grip on it) for a year now. Prior to that I had a Ping G2 10.5 deg neutral face driver (44 1/2") with ProLaunch Blue for 2 years. The year before that my Dad gave me a Cobra X Speed driver with UST Pro Launch AT stiff shaft (44 1/2"). My best drive (270) beats the Ping by 30 yards and the Cobra by 50. My strongest drive with the Ping was a 230 yard power fade. It and the Cobra got the same average distance straight (210-220). My average distance with the Burner is 230-240 and a recent outing at a demo day confirmed that buying an R11 would be a waste of money because I hit the 2K7 Burner much better. I didn't use a driver at all 25 years ago but could hit a 3 wood 250+ yards. In regards to going out and spending over $2000 for a brand new set of clubs.... I have quite a few thoughts on that. 1. Someone that barely breaks 100 has no business with a $2000 set of golf clubs. They need to learn how to play golf first. This would be akin to a beginning guitarist getting a $2800 Martin acoustic or a $3000 Les Paul (I play in a band semi-professionally and finally acquired a Fender Telecaster and a Gretsch $2K hollowbody after 30 years of guitar playing; I gigged with a $400 standard Strat for a year before buying my Tele). 2. If ain't broke, don't fix it. My dad has had the same putter for 54+ years and the same woods for 20. He also carried a set of Ben Hogan Apex irons for 25 years. He is a single digit (still) at age 77. I've had the same amp and guitars for 10 years now. 3. If someone plays competitive golf, THEN a $2000 set of sticks is necessary. Sorry about being so long-winded.

Jakes D

lou please do yourself a favour and read about swing weight vs moi by tom wishon who is one of the top club fitters

and technical advisors to the pga getting swingweight right the way you state is distorts the overall weight of the club

and change club lengt and moi through the set  this is a very technical issue.  

I did go to his website after my last two posts and watched the video and read a couple articles. I used quite a bit of swingweight tape in the early days (2007-2009). I also saw the point about Tommy Armour having a set of clubs where the woods are all the same length as a 5 wood and the irons the same as a 6. One Iron Golf does something similar - the woods are the same length as a 7 wood and the irons the same as an 8. Sorry, Charlie my perfect iron just so happens to be a 9 or pitching wedge. Perfect wood is a 7 wood (41.5" with 58 deg lie angle). Perfect hybrid has a length of 38" and lie angle of 61. I even asked the owner of One Iron if they ever intended on making hybrids all having the same shaft length - their answer was they didn't intend on adding hybrids because of the R & D. To reiterate,my Snake Eyes irons were ones I constructed myself based on a "mad scientist" project (a set of 3DX 4-6 hybrids; I had to shorten the shafts 1 inch and used swingweight tape to get the feel right and the end result was that I reshafted them to True Temper Lite XL steel). I also messed around with an Tight Lies 7 wood around 2007. I cut it 1" short and had the repair person at Golfsmith put some titanium powder in the hosel to restore swingweight. Adams woods are notorious for being too long because they have very light heads. I became wise on grip weight in 2009 when I built the irons. I also found out that Winn Excel RF (43g midsize) generally improved the feel on my long clubs (it also bumps the swingweight by 2 points). When I took the Titleist DCI irons in for lie angle adjustments, I brought along an old Lynx Black Cat 9 iron as a reference (I had 5-PW lie angles matched to the AP1 charts and they hit dead straight although the distance was 10 yards short of my Snake Eyes; my nephew has them in his bag). We did the lie board with 9 irons and matched them, spaced the irons 1/2 degree (and did a sanity check with the lie board on the 6 iron). The only tweak I had to do was flatten the 4 iron 1/2 degree because I was pulling it. They are just about impossible to not hit straight. I also have a set of Eye 2 6-PW and they hit straight but the distances on the 6 and 7 aren't that great. They are zeroed in for lie angle (had flatted them to yellow dot) and length but are candidates for reshaft (I'm leaning toward TT Lite XL but may have Jesse at Fairway Golf do a shaft matching using a G15 yellow dot head). It is only $5 per club to have the shafts pulled. I'll do the shaft installation myself because I have control of how to trim the tip, putting in head weight, etc. This would be a nice project.

I did watch that video as you suggested and there is some good info. Also, check out some of the videos of Bronson at Revolution Golf (they also now have Golf Channel's Jim McClean on their staff). Pretty familiar with swingweight tape. When I started playing again in 2006, I went through quite a bit of it. First thing was I had a set of 3DX (4-6 iron) hybrids and they were an inch too long for my swing. The end result was that I ended up reshafting them to True Temper Lite XL. I also had some G10s that I put some tape on to bring the swingweight to D2 and this is when I found out that changing the grip from a standard rubber type to Winn Excel RF did the same thing. Also had an experience with titanium powder. In my experiment with woods in 2007, I cut anTight Lies wood by 1" (Adams are a bit long anyway) and the clubfitter at Golfsmith put some in to restore the feel. Lastly, reshafted a driver my dad gave me (Cobra X Speed) from ProForce AT stiff to Grafalloy (firm tip) because the trajectory was too high. Also found out my ideal driver length was 45".

I do have to admit that I got off on a tangent the first two posts. There is also a website called www.golfspyder.com and it has standard fitting charts; the disconnect is the irons are spaced by 1 degree vs the way Titleist and TM do theirs (1 degree from the 5 iron up and 1/2 degree from the 5 iron down). When I did the lie angle adjustment with the Lynx Black Cats, I had to bend the 5 iron 2 deg upright, the 6 1.5 deg upright, the 7 1 degree upright and the 8 1/2 deg upright to have them meet Titleist specs - by golly I was able to nail a 5 iron! (something I hadn't been able to do since 2006); these clubs were not touched between 2008 and early this year and I managed to shoot +2 (at the same course I played Friday) despite being shorter than I was used to with the Snake Eyes.